Comments on: Why Employee Owned Source Code is a Problematic Solution https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:26:08 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.15 By: Simon Grant https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1577300 Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:26:08 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1577300 I think I get the arguments on both sides here, but I have to ask a question about a possible case in point.

What if (as is likely) I were to get together a bunch of people to develop a (web-based) service that depends vitally for its success on being a monopoly? That service being in the service of the commons… If there is no protection at all, it’s not just that the ideas could be lifted and pressed into service for commercial gain, but that if other people decide to copy the service, it will inevitably diminish the value of each one, the point where none of them would succeed. Any smart capitalist could start up a rival service simply to disrupt the success of the original.

We read so often of the vital nature of protecting infant industries, for a while, from outside competition. Aren’t we going to recognise the reality of that? That new software-based business models are likely to start off fragile?

What do people think of the idea of a time-limited IPR restriction? Give the service a protected slot, but everyone signs up right at the outset to the code being freed and opened at a fixed date in the future. That would ensure that there is no lasting value for anyone wanting to extract rent. I’m interested in any evidence that this might work, or not.

Actually, in cases like the one I envisage (not necessarily the one in the article), it is not the software itself, but the database, that is vital. Once the database has grown to an established monopoly, the code becomes irrelevant, and could eventually be reverse-engineered in any case. Protecting the code is simply one of the few tactics to delay interference by sabotage.

If I’m mistaken on this, I would really like to know how one can more reliably set up such a database driven, natural monopoly, web-based service for the ultimate good of p2p life, and avoid sabotage by vested interests who would like all such services to fail (in order to preserve the stranglehold of capital on our lives).

Thanks,

Simon

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By: Bob Haugen https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1547504 Wed, 10 Feb 2016 01:34:30 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1547504 I got no problem with experiments. I’m having a side conversation with another person involved with another software co-op that has the same idea. And I could always be wrong. But the problems I see with this idea, in addition to those that Michel raised, are:

1. Code is not an asset, it is a liability, like inventory in a manufacturing company. You need to maintain it. It will drive you nuts.
2. I think ecosystems will rule in software. If you require membership in your cooperative to share your code, you limit your ecosystem.

I’m not sure exactly how ecosystem boundaries and inclusion will work themselves out in the next stage or two. They do need boundaries. But I suspect membership in a co-op is too limited.

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By: Bob Haugen https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1547502 Wed, 10 Feb 2016 01:34:09 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1547502 I got no problem with experiments. Having a side conversation with a person involved with another software co-op that has the same idea. And I could always be wrong. But the problems I see with this idea, in addition to those that Michel raised, are:

1. Code is not an asset, it is a liability, like inventory in a manufacturing company. You need to maintain it. It will drive you nuts.
2. I think ecosystems will rule in software. If you require membership in your cooperative to share your code, you limit your ecosystem.

I’m not sure exactly how ecosystem boundaries and inclusion will work themselves out in the next stage or two. They do need boundaries. But I suspect membership in a co-op is too limited.

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By: Marty Heyman https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1547274 Tue, 09 Feb 2016 14:30:35 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1547274 Michel, movies, sound recordings, news reports, video, photographs all can be copied today at zero marginal cost. At root, I agree if there is some other way to be compensated for the labor and/or use value other than some artificial (copyright) scarcity sanctified in “The Law.” I agree that the big software firms are slowly softening their licensing strategies … but, IMHO, that’s because Open Source is eroding their market share and “free as in beer” is the “Gresham’s Law” in software.

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By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1547082 Tue, 09 Feb 2016 05:55:37 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1547082 Hi Marty, I recognize the real-life challenge you and them are facing, which is the same for start-ups all over. But I don’t believe that privatizing goods that can be copied at zero marginal cost is the solution; instead, I believe it is better to simply requirement payment and reciprocity for commercial exploitation. Time will tell what is the best solution, and you or them have obviously thought long and hard about this before embarking on this new potential solution. It’s clear that capitalist software firms themselve no longer believe that they can maintain artificial scarcity through repression and technological sabotage, and it’s going to be even more difficult to do so for coops.

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By: Marty Heyman https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/why-employee-owned-source-code-is-a-problematic-solution/2016/02/08/comment-page-1#comment-1546757 Mon, 08 Feb 2016 14:45:35 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=53742#comment-1546757 I don’t get it. Yes, they are a worker co-operative so they want to make sure that their primary capital asset is co-operatively owned (by the members) and democratically managed. That’s a good thing. BUT they want to protect the asset from free riders and from adoption by competitors without compensation or assistance … real-life pervasive challenges in Open Source Software. Proprietary software initiatives make me sad, but maybe they aren’t wealthy enough to self-fund and give it away. We didn’t set out to do that and couldn’t raise the capital we needed. We scrambled and lived on rice and beans and credit card debt. And we have, for over 15 years, watched free riders fail to give back either technical support moneys nor technical contributions to the project. And we have seen several cases where competitors took our open source software and incorporated it into their products or projects without so much as a thank-you. An enterprise accepting the responsibility of maintaining a staff and providing predictable, high quality service, has to figure out how to accomplish that. Until some as-yet undefined economic model renders the problem of use-value compensation of developers and maintainers of open source software, people will do what they have to do to honor their commitments to themselves, their families, and their fellow stake-hlders..

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