Comments on: Responding to the Maghrebi/Genovese challenge https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/responding-to-the-maghrebigenovese-challenge/2009/08/25 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:53:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.15 By: Ignacio de Castro https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/responding-to-the-maghrebigenovese-challenge/2009/08/25/comment-page-1#comment-417662 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:53:04 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=4578#comment-417662 Thanks for the comments, David.

I indeed agree: “the maghrebis do exhibit some p2p relationships”, but they “appear to correspond far more to an innovative tribal system than to a p2p system. this is particularly so given the exclusionary behavior that accompanied their ethnic orientations.”
Isolating the features that make them be alike but not the same I think is a glance at the boundaries (maybe rather than limitations) of P2P.

Ignacio

]]> By: david ronfeldt https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/responding-to-the-maghrebigenovese-challenge/2009/08/25/comment-page-1#comment-417628 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:09:10 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=4578#comment-417628 ignacio, i continue to enjoy your postings and ruminations about the maghrebis. they also led me to learn about greif’s writings, which i’d not known about. so, many thanks again.

the maghrebis do exhibit some p2p relationships. but it’s one thing to exhibit some relationships, quite another for those relationships to add up to a full, distinct system of thought and action. the key systems of organization that have developed across the ages so far — tribes, hierarchical institutions (like states), and markets — all contain some p2p relationships in varying respects and degrees. but we have yet to see a full-fledged, distinct p2p/network system emerge to take its place alongside those systems. that still lies ahead.

the maghrebis appear to correspond far more to an innovative tribal system than to a p2p system. this is particularly so given the exclusionary behavior that accompanied their ethnic orientations. and it’s this tribal nature that ultimately limits them. the genovese appear to have been less tribal. thus, perhaps it remains an open question as to whether and how much it’s the tribal, the market, or the p2p orientations that explain the differing outcomes.

just a passing thought. onward.

]]> By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/responding-to-the-maghrebigenovese-challenge/2009/08/25/comment-page-1#comment-417624 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:19:51 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=4578#comment-417624 In reply to Ignacio de Castro.

Dear Ignacio,

I think you are right, for p2p to be significant, it has to continue growing. But this is why we stress, at the P2P Foundation, the construction of durable p2p-like infrastructures in every area of human value production, so as to consolidate this new model. Ultimate we’ll need enterpreneurial coalitions of communities, funders, and business entities to make a new and enduring model that can overtake the old models in the different sectors of production (and we need a new type of outcome, not income driven institutions, as Umair Haque points out, to ally with the p2p communities,

Michel

]]> By: Ignacio de Castro https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/responding-to-the-maghrebigenovese-challenge/2009/08/25/comment-page-1#comment-417622 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:11:15 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=4578#comment-417622 Thank you for such an accurate responseI mostly agree with your views. As I stressed in my third article there are fundamental differences between p2p and Maghribi traders (cultural vs technologically driven system and exclusionary aspects -both related with different transaction costs for the Maghribis).I find specially interesting the views exposed in the two last paragraphs where the limitations of p2p model are addressed. One substantial difference between p2p and the Maghribis practices is that “for contemporary peer production, (…) the exclusionary aspects are marginal compared to the inclusionary aspects”. However not everything is included within p2p model “This potentially weakens peer production, but also is an important way in which it has to remain connected with social and global justice movements arising out of society.” As Ulises Mejias theorizes “(…) the peripheries of the network represent an ethical resistance to the network, and I suggest that these peripheries, the only sites from which it is possible to un-think the network episteme, can inform emerging models of identity and sociality.” These “ecologies”, “hybridities” of what lies within p2p practices and what does not can be either an asset or a limitation, “So while P2P is tendentially hyper-competitive, the devil will always be in the details of the specific ‘competitions’ between free alternatives and their proprietary counterparts.” It is also my impression that this alleged “devil” is related with the binomial composed by equipotentiality and the growth of human/technical capacities: “Indeed, without continued growth of human capacities, along with digital infrastructures, its equipotential basis would shrivel“. Here is where I think that Maghribis history can provide an useful example rather than a deterministic prediction. How to make technical and human capacities be permanently growing so equipotentiality does not result undermined, so hibridity results in a symbiotical process instead of a limitation for the positive aspects that P2P practices implies.P2P processes are in growth, expanding their dominium, if this expansion is not permanent how will this affect participation (for instance the post on “The Power shift at Wikipedia and its deterrent effect on participation“) poses a challenging question.

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