Comments on: Project of the Day: Fork Freedom https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:08:49 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.15 By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20/comment-page-1#comment-490955 Fri, 24 Feb 2012 02:26:53 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=22399#comment-490955 Yes, you are right. However, there is in my opinion a difference between what you call ‘capitalist lies’ and people who may be genuinely concerned with what they see in oppression in former historical experiences, so what they call anarchy is not the historical movement for emancipation, but the lack of order, and communism not a fight for equality, but bureaucratic dictatorships. My reading of this piece is that the heart is in the right place, i.e. the desire for emancipation is there. So some people will use the anarchism/communism concepts critically because they use the mainstream framing but are emancipatory at heart, while others will criticise it precisely because they are emancipatory and their is a huge difference between those two approaches. You are right that I could do more framing and contextualizing myself, but right now, I’m overwhelmed by the need to generate income and working on a research contract, and at least until the end of March, have to use a much lighter hand. But I hope that remarks like yours serve a similar educational purpose.

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By: José Canelas https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20/comment-page-1#comment-490935 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:06:36 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=22399#comment-490935 Michel, this is not a matter of policing. A curation act implies choice and is certainly editorial and political. All I’m saying is that a brief comment is desirable here, like you all often do write to contextualize. Otherwise, we’ll just be disseminating capitalist lies of the most damaging sort. There is a battle going on for language, concepts and words and the class that gains advantage will shift the framing of discussion. We’ve been under occupation of thought and discourse by neoliberal ideology for many years. This domination is under threat now, don’t feed into it – oppose it so that we can regain control of meanings and concepts and so that we can think critically and get our bearings right for political action. Surrendering to “mainstream misunderstanding” is giving up on the core concepts that allows us to talk about our liberation from exploitation. Dmytri Kleiner just wrote an excellent piece about this, btw: http://www.dmytri.info/communism/

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By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20/comment-page-1#comment-490930 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 04:31:07 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=22399#comment-490930 Hi Jose, the p2p blog is a curation mechanism that aims to provoke thought and does not endorse all the curated material, we are pluralist but joined by a common interest in p2p … the overall majority of the world population has this mainstream misunderstanding of the historical concepts you mention, and this is very hard to police. If you look at the basic thought and feeling of the article, then it goes in the right direction.

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By: José Canelas https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20/comment-page-1#comment-490923 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:21:35 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=22399#comment-490923 It’s hard to take an article seriously when it uses completely perverted concepts of communism or anarchy, all in it’s opening sentence. In a communist society there will be no state and anarchy has nothing to do with this “libertarianism” or placing power in the hands of corporations, it’s actually the opposite of that. Any dictionary will tell you this.

Maybe there could be something valuable in there. If you want to draw attention to it, say it clearly and point out whatever misconceptions, even if briefly, so that people don’t mistake your linking with endorsement.

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By: Øyvind Holmstad https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-fork-freedom/2012/02/20/comment-page-1#comment-490879 Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:36:57 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=22399#comment-490879 Here it’s not separated between classical liberalism and modernist liberalism, which is opposites, hence positive and negative freedom. For modernist liberalism ALL power is shared between the state and the corporations, nothing is left to the individual and local communities. Our only “right” is to think what we like, while ALL important decisions are left to the technocracy of experts. This is the situation of today!

For classical liberalism all this is turned on the head, where self-organization and re-localisation is the very core! I want to quota Charles Siegel:

– Classical liberalism believed in positive freedom, the right of people to manage their own affairs and to govern themselves.

– Victorian liberalism had two aspects. One of these two is well known: laissez-faire liberalism accommodated the industrial economy by inventing the ideal of negative freedom, the notion that freedom is nothing more than absence of government control. But there was also a more idealistic aspect of Victorian liberalism, which grew out of classical liberalism but which is largely forgotten today.

– Modernist liberalism kept the laissez-faire idea of negative freedom but applied it to a narrow realm of personal behavior. It expected centralized organizations to make important decisions, so it believed that individuals could only have personal freedom.

Laissez-faire and modernist liberalism redefined freedom as negative in order to accommodate economic growth. To revitalize the liberal tradition for our time, we need to revive the ideal of positive freedom.

Charles Siegel’s book on Classical Liberalism is published as a free e-book here: http://www.preservenet.com/classicalliberalism/index.html

Conclusion: We cannot fork modernist liberalism, we need to replace it with classical liberalism.

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