Comments on: New book on the expansion of peer production in the physical economy https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:43:50 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.15 By: Patrick Anderson https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-1558418 Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:43:50 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-1558418 Hi Christian,

“If the means of production are available as commons or pseudo-commons, you, as a consumer, can turn into a producer at any time”

If the workers are the owners, they would not want consumers to become workers, since that would take away jobs and reduce wages.

If the consumers are the owners, the barriers-to-entry are much lower because there is no incentive to stop consumers from becoming workers.

]]> By: Christian Siefkes https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-125233 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:50:37 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-125233 The book is now also available in print. It can be ordered from Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk or through the Peerconomy Wiki.

]]> By: ChristianS https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-115573 Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:03:11 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-115573 s goal to insure the virtual Means of Production (source code) should be in the hands of the CONSUMERS. </blockquote> You're right, but you won't need any means of production unless you want to turn from a mere consumer into a producer (or both, i.e., a <em>prosumer</em>). As long as you're just a consumer, the means of <em>production</em> are, by definition, of no use to you (as long as I'm just eating a biscuit, I don't want to take care of the bakery). But if the means of production are available as commons or pseudo-commons, you, as a consumer, can turn into a producer at any time (either by producing yourself or by asking others to do it for you). The common availability of means of production blurs the distinction between consumers and producers, since consumers can become producers when they choose to do so. Stallman also talks about this possibility of consumers to turn into producers/prosumers whenever they want to: “If it breaks, they can’t fix it [...] They can’t help each other improve it.“ Peer production gives consumers this option to become producers/prosumers, while market production usually doesn't.]]> Patrick:

Which seems to imply the importance of the GNU General Public License.

Well, I could just as well have mentioned the free *BSD systems. Free availability of knowledge and information is essential, while copyleft vs. non-copylefted free licensing is more a matter of taste, in my opinion (I also discuss this quickly in the text).

But the GNU GPL is very clear in it’s goal to insure the virtual Means of Production (source code) should be in the hands of the CONSUMERS.

You’re right, but you won’t need any means of production unless you want to turn from a mere consumer into a producer (or both, i.e., a prosumer). As long as you’re just a consumer, the means of production are, by definition, of no use to you (as long as I’m just eating a biscuit, I don’t want to take care of the bakery). But if the means of production are available as commons or pseudo-commons, you, as a consumer, can turn into a producer at any time (either by producing yourself or by asking others to do it for you).
The common availability of means of production blurs the distinction between consumers and producers, since consumers can become producers when they choose to do so.

Stallman also talks about this possibility of consumers to turn into producers/prosumers whenever they want to: “If it breaks, they can’t fix it […] They can’t help each other improve it.“ Peer production gives consumers this option to become producers/prosumers, while market production usually doesn’t.

]]> By: Patrick Anderson https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-115159 Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:04:09 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-115159 Hello Christian,

I was very excited to read your paper, as I have been working on the same or a very similar thing since the late part of 1999.

In it you say “‘A new mode of production has emerged in the areas of software and content production during the last decades. This mode, which is based on sharing and cooperation, has spawned whole mature operating systems such as GNU/Linux …'”

Which seems to imply the importance of the GNU General Public License.

Later you say “‘Peer production thus fulfills the old Marxist postulate that “control over the means of production should be in the hands of the producers”.'”

But the GNU GPL is very clear in it’s goal to insure the virtual Means of Production (source code) should be in the hands of the CONSUMERS.

When RMS speaks of freedom it is always about the User (consumer), not developer, author, producer, worker or owner.

For instance, http://GNU.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.html says “‘Proprietary software is an exercise of power. Copyright law today grants software developers that power, so they and only they choose the rules to impose on everyone else—a relatively few people make the basic software decisions for everyone, typically by denying their freedom. When users lack the freedoms that define Free Software, they can’t tell what the software is doing, can’t check for back doors, can’t monitor possible viruses and worms, can’t find out what personal information is being reported (or stop the reports, even if they do find out). If it breaks, they can’t fix it; they have to wait for the developer to exercise its power to do so. If it simply isn’t quite what they need, they are stuck with it. They can’t help each other improve it.'”

And the recent interview “Three Minutes with Richard Stallman” at http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,137098-c,freeware/article.html says “‘With free software, the users are in control. Most of the time, users want interoperability, and when the software is free, they get what they want. With non-free software, the developer controls the users. The developer permits interoperability when that suits the developer; what the users want is beside the point.'”

If a “Mode of Production” is defined by who controls the “Means of Production”, then the GNU Mode of Production is one in which the Consumers and NOT the Producers are at the helm.

What say ye to such a monkey wrench? I am continuing with this interesting read and plan to post more at a later time.

Thanks,
Patrick Anderson

]]> By: Patrick https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-114798 Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:49:05 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-114798 Christian,
I didn’t have time to read your book yet, but your purpose remind me about participatory economics. You should check the web site in case you don’t know it already.

]]> By: Christian Siefkes https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-114354 Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:34:59 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-114354 @Man: The anarchist models I’m aware of tend to be focused on the political sphere, they don’t have much to say about production (beyond “we’ll organize this somehow”). My book is about how production can be organized without requiring a state or a market or, for that matter, a centralized planning institution. In this it goes farther than any anarchist models I know. The organization of the political sphere is quited related to anarchist ideas – I agree on that, but it’s not the core of my model.

My models on how to distribute tasks and products without requiring centralized planning or a market are really new and have never before been discussed, to my knowledge.

The fact that no planning institution is needed is the main difference from the non-anarchist communists models I’m aware of. Whether to still call the result “socialism” or “communism” is mainly a matter of taste — I won’t mind, but I think it would mislead people about what my model is about.

@Sam: Thanks 🙂

]]> By: economy » Blog Archive » Pacific Time: Pork and the Chinese Economy https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-114314 Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:52:08 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-114314 […] Since then I will be happy about feedback, critics, and inspired debates. If my book leads to a reflection, that a post-capitalist economy is no longer utopian as it seems to be, then its ends are achieved. …more […]

]]> By: Sam Rose https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-114211 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:26:58 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-114211 Just started reading today. I skimmed through, and I can already see quite a few applicable models for collaborative ventures.

Thanks Christian, and Michel! Good stuff…

]]> By: man https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21/comment-page-1#comment-114106 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:31:40 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/new-book-on-the-expansion-of-peer-production-in-the-physical-economy/2007/09/21#comment-114106 I looked over your book and your ideas are very similar to anarchism. So it is really nothing new. Generally it is socialism.

ps. There was NO socialism in Soviet Union (maybe in the first few months until they killed everyone who really believed it). Simple dictatorship does not count as socialism.

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