Comments on: I Used to Argue for UBI. Then I gave a talk at Uber. https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:29:31 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.15 By: D Tucker https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1620680 Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:29:31 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1620680 There is a far superior proposal, with ASPECTS of BI. The establishment politicians know of it, and have been working furiously for over 2 years to HIDE IT from the public and see which inferior proposal we might accept, keeping us desperate and working for crap wages.
fightforfjg.com

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By: Stamatis Kavvadias https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1613173 Sun, 02 Dec 2018 17:42:16 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1613173 I completely agree: the problem is wealth inequality and not income inequality. That is, if the problem you are trying to solve is inequality. If the problem you are trying to solve is sustainability of the economic system, UBI will suffice, in economic terms. Both will possibly fail in environmental and resource terms.

Leaving the last part out, UBI may have been proposed to counter inequality, but has likely been considered for implementation because of excessive and spreading indebtedness and the prospect of secular stagnation. As usual, those making the decisions will likely not consider as feasible or desirable overturning the system.

In my opinion, the source of having value entrenched in assets, which is remote trade among strangers, cannot be managed by wishing for “taking back” public ownership of assets: the power to decide increasingly resides with those controlling remote commerce (or you wait for suitable historical circumstances and, even if achieved, it could later revert to the former or some other oligarchy). The answer cannot be “negative”, as in “taking back” ownership, control etc; it has to be “positive”, as in “building” something new: e.g., establishing public infrastructure for remote commerce…

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By: Avi https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612753 Thu, 29 Nov 2018 12:22:07 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612753 How is UBA really different from shareholding?

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By: Simon Grant https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612449 Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:23:57 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612449 Interesting argument, but I’m not sure I agree. If people on UBI still want to work, as has been largely demonstrated, then why should it “[obviate] the need for people to consider true alternatives to living lives as passive consumers”? To me, it’s frequently the other way round. Keeping people in constant uncertainty; draining their energy either with unsatisfying work or with endless hoops to jump through to qualify for benefits: those are the things that keep people in hopelessness and prevent them from considering true alternatives. You seem to have a model in your mind of a kind of rational revolutionary … “let me see now, this situation is intolerable therefore I will revolt” … which favours people having unencumbered leisure of unemployment.

What’s the historical or cultural evidence that people behave the way you seem to imply?

Having disagreed with your arguments, I’d like to broadly agree with your conclusions: we should in any case be giving genuine controlling stakes to everyone, distributing power, and after the distribution of power will follow more equal distribution of money. But how is that going to happen? Benevolent companies, just doing what they ethically “should” be doing?

Yes, I absolutely agree, we (that’s us, you and me, those who find themselves with the privilege of some time and resource to think) should be doing what we can to encourage and support people to start their own worker-owned enterprises, and to make them out-compete their shareholder-owned competitors. But what better start for that than UBI? What better, in fact, than to accept a UBI under the kind of pretence that you suggest is in the interests of the stakeholders in the status quo, and use it for exactly the opposing ends?

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By: Betzalel Fonteijn https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612448 Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:18:31 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612448 It’s an interesting line of reasoning. It falls foul of the redistribution causes havoc rule. I’d make a law which went as follows. Each company on the stock exchange has to split their shares so that it’s possible to buy a single share for less than £100. Then I’d automate a deduction from wages which automatically gets invested (this is the same as your pension). This would end up with real asset ownership by the proletariat

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By: Donovan T Baarda https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612421 Tue, 27 Nov 2018 10:31:44 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612421 This is not really an argument against UBI, but it is true that UBI alone is not enough.

UBI coupled with a simplified high flat income tax to fund it is still the best way to add negative feedback to counter the “it takes money to make money” positive feedback that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.

However, we also need things like national medical services and disability insurance to share health and accident risks fairly.

We also really need some way to deal with company competition, cooperation, colusion, and monopolies in markets.

The objective and result of successful competition is a monopoly. How do we prevent that from happening to keep the efficiencies of competition? What if the industry really is more efficient as a monopoly (and i belive things like Uber are)? Should they be nationalised? What about global monopolies?

These are hard questions too, but they are not the questions that UBI is the answer to.

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By: Remzi https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612398 Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:47:46 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612398 Agreed. A ubi within the current equation of Capitalism is akin to adding fuel to a fire; a ubi would accelerate an already exponential collapse of our ecology. Also agree that the prescription for a viable and desirable alternative includes recapturing of the commons and the production thereof to benefit all. We’ve a proposal using this approach: Common-Planet.org

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By: Frank https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-i-gave-a-talk-at-uber/2018/11/26/comment-page-1#comment-1612366 Tue, 27 Nov 2018 01:14:46 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=73544#comment-1612366 You can’t be serious… because the money will end up in the hands of corporations we shouldn’t have UBI? Yer a freakin idiot if you really believe that. Of course the money will end up with corporations, they supply the stuff we need to buy! What else would people spend the money on? You’re going to take your UBI and put it in the market? No, people will first pay necessities and then spend on what for them is a luxury. You want to snatch UBI away from granny because Duke energy gets rich because she can turn the heat up some? Dude, quit doing so much writing and get out there and do some living.

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