Comments on: Gail Tverberg vs. John Michael Greer https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Tue, 08 Jan 2019 10:48:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.14 By: illi fernhaven https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1617258 Tue, 08 Jan 2019 10:48:00 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1617258 Recycling is just mining a very high quality ore. By your definition, it is a gift.

“The energy needed to get the sand out of the tar sands or the oil out of the shale oil has to come from somewhere, and that energy, in turn, is not available for other uses. ”

There’s a lot of energy hitting our planet from the sun. You can use some of that energy and concentrate tar sands or shale oil or something else into whatever nice dense energy storage thing you want. And then there’s plenty of energy left over for other uses.

The price of your energy reflects the energy you used to refine it. We know that at $100/barrel oil prices, there are numerous technologies we can use to produce $100/barrel oil. And once we are manufacturing oil instead of mining it, manufacturing economies of scale kick in to start dropping the price.

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By: Robert Orr FAIA, FCNU, FSY https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1587272 Tue, 27 Feb 2018 20:04:17 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1587272 What is the answer to population explosion? 3-600 million for thousands of years, now 7.8 billion, double that by 2100, etc., etc.

What is the answer to insatiable land development, 15,000% higher than it was for thousands of years before the 19th century? Insatiable land development scrapes off the vital few feet of fertility/habitat of Earth’s crust, disrupts balance in species, and causes widespread extinctions, famines, disease, etc., etc.

Both vis à vis fractal, dome made up of Leonardo Sticks, or ephermalization?

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By: Andy Nest https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1565873 Sun, 27 Mar 2016 13:20:12 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1565873 I wonder how much of the deflation in computers is due to cost externalization?

Regarding solar as a viable alternative to fossil fuels, there’s a lot of debate around the true EROEI of solar PV.
http://www.springer.com/br/book/9781441994363

Regarding oil prices check this.
http://www.artberman.com/kunstlercast-art-berman-clarifies-whatever-happened-to-peak-oil/

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By: skintnick https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1095879 Sat, 14 Feb 2015 22:57:13 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1095879 I just want to point out this talk http://bit.ly/13Y6W6K where the speaker indicates her view on “peak phosphorous”

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By: Orsan https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1088808 Mon, 09 Feb 2015 19:33:57 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1088808 This comparison is not a valid one since the both models are static ones, while the economy is built on dynamic social relationships that are not totally determined but limited or constrained by historically specific social structures. So if it will collapse or not, thrown away or renew itself is open ended question that will be defined by sum of conscious and unconscious, collective and individual, internal and external, and multi level interactions 🙂

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By: Paul Hughes https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1086168 Sun, 08 Feb 2015 10:26:20 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1086168 Here’s something I posted the other day in another group. The kind of information and analysis that is inconvenient to Greer and Tverberg, not to mention the emotional investment they’ve put into their careers.


You may have heard deflation is a bad thing, something to be feared. This might have been true in a scarcity based economy, but the opposite is true in an abundance based economy. No where is this more true than in the information technology sector, where annual deflation runs well over 50%. This is a huge rate of deflation, yet it comes from a sector of the economy that generates the most robust economic growth each year. Deflation is the result of advancing technology that generates greater efficiencies resulting in ephermalization – doing more and more with less and less. Ephermalization is now impacting the energy markets in earnest. Soon, energy is about to become even cheaper than it already is, despite falling oil prices. Below are two articles you should read, back to back. The first is a projection from Citigroup, a traditionally conservative institution, that advancing battery technology is going to be even more disruptive than solar, supplanting the entire fossil fuel industry withing the next *decade*. The second is a brilliant explanation of Saudi Arabia’s smart and prescient move to drop oil prices. Time is running out for fossil fuels remaining competitive, so with each passing day remaining reserves are becoming less valuable. Soon they will be worthless. Better to make some money now while the world still needs your oil, than none later when the world has moved on to something better.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/31/citigroup-predicts-battery-storage-will-hasten-demise-fossil-fuels/

http://www.energypost.eu/historic-moment-saudi-arabia-sees-end-oil-age-coming-opens-valves-carbon-bubble/

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By: Paul Hughes https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1086155 Sun, 08 Feb 2015 10:18:39 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1086155 Oyvind, I rest my case. Any opponent in a debate who has to resort to ad hominens, as JMG did, obviously isn’t willing to engage in rational debate backed by a complete assessment of the facts. GL is clearly more civil, but again, no actual factual rebuttal, with her fans also resorting to ad hominens. Given my previous experience with collapsitarians, I’m not surprised in the least – scratch “a crackpot pessimist” and what you’ll likely find is an overly emotional and reactive person addicted to their disasterbation. It’s too bad really, because factual and reasoned debate is precisely what is needed.

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By: Øyvind Holmstad https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1086001 Sun, 08 Feb 2015 07:54:58 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1086001 “Oyvind, so? Of course the purveyors of crackpot optimism are going to reject what I have to say — after all, look at all this vaporware they’ve imagined! The proof of the pudding, though, is in the eating, and despite all the constantly shifting claims about this or that or the other miracle technology that’s sure to save us all, the decline and fall of industrial civilization is still following the familiar trajectory.” – JMG

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.no/2015/02/as-night-closes-in.html

“I will try to write more posts explaining exactly what the issues are in developing a new society. Basically, we have to start over either completely, or with bits and pieces of our current system that can somehow survive. This is far different from back in the days of the Roman Empire and other early collapses, where farmers could simply move their location from one place to another. We are instead faced with some number of survivors from the current civilization, each with skills that are not very useful in the new civilization. Instead of knowing how to use a computer on the Internet, people will need to figure out how to get along without grid electricity and our current paved roads. Your ideas of modular reusable tool sets seem “pie in the sky” to me. We haven’t figured out today how to get rid of friction; I doubt we will without grid electricity. Rocks are reusable tools that can be easily replaced. Perhaps we need to think about them.” – GT

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2015/02/05/charts-showing-the-long-term-gdp-energy-tie-part-2-a-new-theory-of-energy-and-the-economy/

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By: Bob Haugen https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1084927 Sat, 07 Feb 2015 14:54:18 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1084927 This is an important set of questions which requires more research and more careful analysis. Ad hominems and hand waving do not apply. I am not sure of the answers myself, but to say Tverberg is an actuary and that disqualifies her is not a valid argument. Nor is “they both lost”, for that matter.

Here’s another guy trying to do the quantitative analysis: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/10/the-energy-trap/

My problem with Tverberg’s analysis is not that she does not factor in innovations that do not quite exist yet, but that she assumes the current economic system will survive the coming crises. Greer does not, but doesn’t hold much hope for something better, either. I do. But I could be deluded.

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By: Paul Hughes https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/gail-tverberg-vs-john-michael-greer/2015/02/03/comment-page-1#comment-1084009 Sat, 07 Feb 2015 00:37:47 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=48314#comment-1084009 Care to give us the math and numbers needing crunching, that Greer and Carson didn’t? Please elaborate. Otherwise I will assume your statement is without merit.

Having finally taken the time to visit Gail’s site proved to be quite revealing – she’s an actuary! Her site and all her podcasts, guest appearances, websites are all on places like “doomsdiner”, “peak prosperity”, “our finite world”, not the best bastions of non biased reporting.

I raised my eyebrows on the actuary part, because actuaries are notorious for complete missing any kind of discontinuity – they simply do not take into account any kind of novel development. Almost everything we take for granted in our modern society today was at one point a discontinuity. The invention of the telephone, airplanes, radio, TV, antibiotics, computers, lasers, the Internet, are discontinuities in so called “trend lines”. Now it makes sense why her projections completely ignore the revolutionary advancements that are occurring in solar and battery technologies, 3d printing, and regenerative technics. Actuaries are the same people who erroneously predict the lifespan of children at the time of birth!

Although I suspect we may be in for a catastrophic economic crisis anytime, I simply can’t take the rest of her analysis seriously, given the gapping omissions in her work.

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