Comments on: The Face Value of Bitcoin: Proof of Work and the Labour Theory of Value https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Sun, 10 Feb 2019 23:35:01 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.14 By: Will https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1620710 Sun, 10 Feb 2019 23:35:01 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1620710 this all assumes the labor “theory” of value is correct which it isn’t. which is pseudo garbage based on a premise that value comes from authority and not perspective.

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By: Akeo https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1600836 Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:56:52 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1600836 Thanks for sharing. Good article.

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By: Shawn Johnson https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1596159 Thu, 16 Aug 2018 18:54:08 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1596159 The only “value” accepted in capitalism is exchange value –what is anyone willing to offer.

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By: Dmytri https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586456 Fri, 09 Feb 2018 22:05:52 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586456 @stamatis, yes, the labour theory explains the source of the exchange value in capitalism: labour. PoW does not, in any way, “oppose the commoditization of labor.” That is just more gibberish.

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By: Dmytri Kleiner https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586276 Tue, 06 Feb 2018 15:01:36 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586276 @paulo, the price of transactions and the price of the things being purchased both need to be expressed in some money, and that money needs to be ratio to what is common between them, so work:transaction and work:things, to be money bitcoin would also need to be a ratio to work, work:coin, it could then be divisible by both transactions and things. As Bitcoin is not a fixed ratio to work, it can not be a stable price for either transactions or things, it does not function as money. Ending the creation of Bitcoin and simply relying on transaction costs doesn’t change this, though it will end the mining gold rush, and thus reduce inflationary pressure, it still has no way to be regulated by the market, and therefore will neither be stable nor popular as money.

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By: Stamatis Kavvadias (Σταμάτης Καββαδίας) https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586274 Tue, 06 Feb 2018 14:48:45 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586274 @Dmytri
The only “value” accepted in capitalism is exchange value –what is anyone willing to offer. Labor value is not of fixed exchange value in capitalism (and there are countless mainstream reports on the slower rate of income increase, relative to average prices). Theories do not describe reality, unless people back them with demand, or lack of demand for alternative offers; and even then, it is hard to keep a legitimate market running, if it is opposed by vested interests, because of existing systems of law and order that customarily support these vested interests and the market and military power that backs these systems of law and order. Bitcoin was allowed to run in the capitalist markets, based on its exchange value, which was all the value Bitcoin was aiming for, from its beginning.

Assuming that proof of work of mining graphics cards, has any meaningful relation to labor, undermines its “intrinsic value” to the degree that it attracts capital investment, reversing the relation of value and investment, i.e., it removes any meaning of “intrinsic” from labor value, it shifts all “intrinsic value” to the use of capital (that’s why it is called capitalism) and we are back to exchange value. That is why Bitcoin’s value is only its exchange value, in the first place and does not increase with more hashing power, as such power becomes cheaper and cheaper. The labor theory of value can do nothing about it, much less describe reality.

A market of your proposed currency, with actual labor/work defining value, even if it had peoples’ demand behind it, wouldn’t be allowed to run, as it opposes the commoditization of labor that is capitalism’s central feature, overexploited by neoliberalism. But it would be a very interesting experiment, on our cultural expectations out of “value”.

But, you are not going to debate it…. That’s all right 🙂

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By: Paolo Brini https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586271 Tue, 06 Feb 2018 14:00:32 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586271 Hi Dmytri,

good, I’m trying to clarify the points I probably was too synthetic and/or obscure about.

1.

If you don’t put into the work:coin ratio formula the transaction fees rewards for the miners, at the some point in time, when you reach the maximum divisibility representation of BTC, you get a fixed work:coin ratio, but it’s infinite. No matter how much work you pump into mining, you always get zero coins as a reward. You would have a network in which the miners, from some point in time on, are suddenly no more rewarded. The whole system would collapse quickly, I think, regardless BTC satisfies the property for something to be money or not.

But it’s not Bitcoin, you would have described something else.

Transaction fees rewards, which do exist and will become more and more important, are a brilliant way to resolve the absurdity, as Satoshi Nakamoto apparently was well aware of.

2.

If you consider the work:coin ratio as the amount of work spent on mining, divided by the amount of energy that such work can buy with the mined BTC + fees rewards, things become interesting.

I consider here energy for convenience, since it’s the most basic need for life and an objectively measurable physical quantity. As long as mining remains sustainable, i.e. you can buy more energy with mining than that you would do by converting the mining work into energy in other ways,, the system remains sustainable, competitive against other energy conversion systems, potentially environment impact friendly, and represents an impulse to deflation.

I’m not saying here that the “dreaded deflation” is desirable, I’m just considering that BTC properties push deflation and are a strong deterrent against hyper-consumerism.

I’m also suggesting that the property of something to be money becomes secondary when compared to the efficiency of a system which is competitive in converting energy, has some abilities to auto-fix and is programmed to self-destroy if the energy conversion is no more competitive. Such results are interesting (if not amazing) even if the “price” to pay is that wild speculators are attracted.

If it’s not money, it might be something even better: a system which pushes, technologically and financially, toward an efficient conversion of energy through fair competition.

3.

“Rational cryptocurrencies” based on an infinite supply of coins do exist. The work:coin ratio tends to remain constant, because the coin supply follows rules which take into account the work of a node. For example, after the first billion of EOS is put into circulation, new coins will be the reward for those nodes which validate transactions. The more the work you put into the system, the more coins you receive as a reward. This is a cryptocurrency which tends to assure a rational coin:work ratio at the expense of some potential issue to control inflation.

However, I would like to note that, during the early stage we are living in, such coins have followed the very same pattern, raising the interest of speculators, exactly as it happened with Bitcoin. The value of such cryptocurrencies expressed in EUR or USD has followed an extraordinarily similar development, including paramount volatility, so (at least during this phase) the assumption that a rational currency would not generate hype and attract wild speculators seems very questionable.

Keep up the good work!
Paolo

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By: Dmytri https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586221 Mon, 05 Feb 2018 20:16:11 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586221 @stamis, you clearly don’t understand the labour thoery of value, and it’s outside of the scope of the article for me to explain that to you here any more that I already do in the article itself. The “system of law and order” that backs the assertion is called Capitalism. The market regulates the exchange value of all commodities toward their labour content. If you can take the LTV as given, I’m happy to explain my position, if you can’t and wish to debate the labour theory itself, you’re welcome to move along.

In terms of “Schrödinger’s cat” You do not need to know anything, the investment will lead to more hashing power, and that is measurable, in fact it is already measured in the bitcoin software.

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By: Dmytri https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586219 Mon, 05 Feb 2018 20:08:24 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586219 @emes, the prices would not be inflationary in such a currency, that is exactly the point. The exchange value of the currency would be regulated by the market.

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By: Dmytri https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/face-value-bitcoin-proof-work-labour-theory-value/2018/02/01/comment-page-1#comment-1586218 Mon, 05 Feb 2018 20:06:49 +0000 https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=69585#comment-1586218 @paolo, the marxist theory is the only one that does show that bitcoin could be money, the austrian and chartalist theories believe that bitcoin is purely a speculative asset. applying the marxist theory show us that bitcoin has a design flaw, the broken work:coin ratio. It’s not clear to me why you feel transaction fees are a solution to this, as they don’t answer the question of why is x Bitcoin worth x apples, for example. Only work ratio does.

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