Comments on: Chris Hedges on the significance of #OccupyWallStreet: tinkering with the corporate state is no longer sufficient https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25 Researching, documenting and promoting peer to peer practices Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:40:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.14 By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25/comment-page-1#comment-486609 Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:40:28 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=20430#comment-486609 In reply to Paul.

thanks Paul, I agree with you here!

]]>
By: Paul https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25/comment-page-1#comment-486597 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:05:29 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=20430#comment-486597 As I pointed out (although not specifically) he gets it right – specifically when he says the current system cannot be fixed. His recommendation of forming sustainable communities is also something I wholeheartedly agree with. After that, he decends (quickly) into the darkest and most dystopian future I’ve ever read – worse than any cyberpunk novel, and worse than Mad Max. At least with Mad Max you could carve out your freedom against more or less equally lethal foes. What he is saying is smack full of contradiction – a total collapse of civilization, of economics, of the environment, of civil society, while the elite still maintain control. Given the total system collapse he describes, control of what exactly? And how? What he describes is basically post-Roman Empire Dark Ages stuff. With a few citadels holding onto the knowledge (as monks did during the Dark Ages) until civilization rises from the ashes some centuries later. And he says with a deterministic certainty that puts his entire argument into question. Is it possible that some kind of new dark age could come? Yes. But there are so many other countervailing trends that are coming into play. What I have discovered is that we have been so programmed to be afraid of ANY alternative to the current system, that it’s end automatically entails the doom and gloom he talks about. We’ve seen it in numerous and more recent examples in our media culture – dystopian movies, dystopian scifi (seen any positive scifi lately, how about in the last 20 years?). I have discovered and realized far too many positive pathways out of our current dilemma. I can’t be alone. We need more positive can-do people. “Calling all 21st century Bucky Fullers – your world needs you – now!” In the bigger scheme of things, people like Hedges and Orlov are doing everyone a great disservice.

I just read Hedges bio on Wikipedia. It explains everything. The guy is a WAR correspondent, and has been for the last 20 years, spending most of that time in awful war torn places around the world. No wonder he has no optimism – he has placed himself DELIBERATELY, at any given time, in the worst possible places on Earth. Like I said, “he needs to get out more.” There is a whole world out there of can-do practical people who desperately want to live in a world of peace and prosperity. When hard times hit, they take care of each other. They do not turn on each other.

]]>
By: Michel Bauwens https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25/comment-page-1#comment-486595 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:48:30 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=20430#comment-486595 Well Paul, obviously we disagree … I think Hedges has it right .. tinkering with the existing system won’t work, and only a deep phase transition can solve the very deep challenges our planet is facing. In fact, I’m not sure if you read him right, as what he is saying is not so different from what you are saying. He supports the movement, and believes it is the only way forward. But even if we succeed, we will face very serious challenges. I don’t think his scenario of descent is inevitable, I believe that we can create something better and thrivable, but, it is not inconceivable.

]]>
By: Paul https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25/comment-page-1#comment-486594 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 04:45:14 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=20430#comment-486594 I apologize for being blunt – but Chris Hedges needs to see a psychologist and get on some serious anti-depressants. I’ve never seen such a depressing display of pessimism in my entire life. No, seriously. He needs to get out more. He makes Dmitri Orlov look like Pollyanna. He gets it so right, only to come to all the wrong conclusions. His assumptions are so grandiose (and wrong), that I find it nigh futile to counter them. He writes this as if it were already set in stone. He ignores the larger historical forces taking place here – namely that we are transitioning from an artificial scarcity economy based on the industrial era to one that is light-speed, rapidly adaptable, decentralized and open-sourced. He conveniently leaves how there could be such a vast global systemic collapse of the entire political-economic system, yet the very rulers depending on that system would somehow magically remain in power? By what means? The vast militarization of capitalism is insanely expensive and unsustainable. He then wrongly assumes that people will descend into barbarism; that people are incapable of waking up. Yet this is precisely what people are doing all over the world, right now. Every where there is catastrophe, whether it be economic or natural, people put aside their differences and come together to help one another. This has been true throughout history and it especially true now. Some recent examples – Katrina, Haiti, Japan, and Joplin, Missouri.

Michel – any reason for posting this guys crapola?

]]>
By: PG https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/chris-hedges-on-the-significance-of-occupywallstreet-tinkering-with-the-corporate-state-is-no-longer-sufficient/2011/10/25/comment-page-1#comment-486590 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:57:15 +0000 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=20430#comment-486590 Usual (and lethal) confusion: that modern political systems were democratic. Nope. They were and are representative systems.

It may be the case that democratic systems are representative. For massive systems that appears necessary.

But that does not entail that representative systems are democratic.

]]>